2020 Hindsight

Posting from the GVL Fire Station : ) - SNOW!

This is on the RimoftheWorld.net message boards for Green Valley Lake.

From: GVL Fire Station

Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 08:06 PM

Well, Hello everyone. This is coming to you live from the GVL Fire Station. We are all here and yes very tired. The fire, no matter what the news says has not made it to our lovely town. It is as Roger said to the north and west of Trails End. It is holding along the hiking trail from Tent Peg Campground to Fishermans Campground. We made some small progress today with the help of 3 Heavy Helicopters and a Bulldozer from CDF. They have taken all of the supporting engines that we have had staged here off the mountain for the night due to the threat of snow......Ok, it is no longer a threat..IT IS SNOWING!!!!!!!! Sorry to cut this short but we really need some sleep. Please keep us in your thoughts and prayers. GVL Fire: Joseph, Matt, Digger, Tom, Paul, Chris, Luke, Rusty, Lance (Scott is off on the USFS Helicopter but here in spirit). Don't know if we will be able to get back on line but we will try to get back each day and give you an update if possible!!!!!!, [emphasis mine]

GVL trivia: It is the highest place in So Cal. Elevation that is. 7200 feet.

Listening to a radio show today w/ some learned plant scholar talking about erosion and flooding, he said the best possible form of precipitation we can get with post-fire soil hardening is snow (soil surface is waxy and water resistant due to burnt out plants that, after vaporizing, drift down again on the ground and form a kind of waxy seal). But what am I thinking? The fire didn't reach GVL so it's just pipe-freezing weather! (oops) But for places where fire hit, the snow is a good thing; don't know how low the snow level is. (I was just told it was predicted to go down to 4000') Good. If I recall right, Crestline is 4800'.

message board updates

From Charlietuna, [via Joe Urbz]

2 nights ago I stopped posting just right before the Fire crew in Hook creek pulled out and endured the flashover inside of their trucks... windows so hot they could even touch them with gloves, not mention the paint on the trucks burning off. 1/2 hour in hell, not knowing if your days were up or not. The firemen on duty here are all people to be awed and thanked. Remember that whenever you see them after this is all over."

From the RimoftheWorld.net message boards, Green Valley Lake thread:

posted 3pm:

Hi all, just heard a report from Jeff Gill who is on the mountain with the fire fighters that the fire is a 1/2 mile away from the Calvary Chapel youth camp. Best wishes on you all.

posted 1pm: Everthing in Green Valley is great. It has been snowing. There are 13 ot 15 fire trucks and 45 to 50 firemen. They are working out towards crab flats cutting fire breaks. The fire has damaged nothing. The closest it got was over a mile.

Preliminary note from Arrowhead Communities Fire Safe Council

Preliminary note from Arrowhead Communities Fire Safe Council

Below are two official notices from the County of San Bernardino. These notices provide updates on fire status and complexities of returning to evacuated communities.

In a nutshell, utility lines are not only down, but many power poles have burned and need replacement. Trees around the power poles and lines are a serious risk to rebuilding powerlines in the mountains and reenergizing SCE customers. The process will take a while to work out a safe plan of action.

Here is the most recent information provided by a high level official at SCE: On the night of the most significant fire danger in the mountain communities, especially when Rim Forest areas burned, SCE evacuated the mountain at the request of fire officials. At this time, utility personnel are not being allowed up the mountain unless escorted by fire officials. SCE is working with County Office of Emergency Services, Federal and State officials, and others to develop a logical plan of action for restoration of power to the mountains. Included in the plan is use of SCE contract crews for tree removal on a large scale deployment. Currently, 32 crews will be working in the area and able to remove 200 trees per day in areas where line reconstruction is needed prior to reenergizing. Crews from Jordan and Phillips, Asplundh and Mowbray are the initial contract crews assigned to return to the area and rebuild. SCE line construction crews will reenter areas and build power lines, set poles, hardware, transformers and other steps related to a complete rebuild, after areas are declared safe from falling trees, brittle limbs and fire risks. The process cannot be done over night. While some people may wish to return to their homes early, the likeliness of obtaining power to homes is going to take a while. No reliable estimate is available at this time. GAS LINES: So Cal Gas company is also reviewing all gas lines and it is very possible gas will be shut off in areas where fire caused serious loss. Open lines cannot be reenergized by the gas company until inspected and capped. Telephone and Cable: While not necessarily essential to habitation, telephone and cable lines have been burned down in many areas. The Cable TV building is completely destroyed. Rebuilding delivery of phone and cable TV may be delayed for extended periods.

WATER: Some water agencies cannot pump water or provide purification. Arrowhead Villas Water Agency has announced that water is not purified and should not be consumed until notified accordingly.

CAL-TRANS: The "K" railings along the highways have been burned and completely destroyed in some areas. Replacement of K rails is being discussed for expedited return of residents in a safe manner. To rebuild K rails may take as long as 3 weeks if done without residents on the mountain. A compromise building plan is being discussed to allow residents partial access to roadways. Fires are still burning in the mountain areas and are a very present danger to residents.

Do not return to the mountain areas unless you have business and are escorted by fire officials. This is not a time to make a hasty decision and return to a danger zone. The "Summer of Inconvenience" has become a reality of the worst kind. Please recognize everyone is doing the best they can to accommodate many anxious people and nobody had a plan in place for a disaster of this magnitude. The above is my opinion only and not a representation of official communication. It is hoped this information will help everyone at this time. As more information is available, it will be provided to you for distribution to others as needed.

PLEASE READ OFFICIAL COUNTY NOTICES INCLUDED BELOW. David R. Caine, Executive Director Arrowhead Communities Fire Safe Council PO Box 3022, Lake Arrowhead, CA 92352 Ph. (909) 336-6903 336-6972 FAX 337-2724

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PUBLIC NOTICE From the County of San Bernardino Thursday, October 30, 2003

Update on efforts to re-open mountain communities to evacuated residents State, federal, and county agencies are currently working on plans to safely re-open San Bernardino County mountain communities to residents who were evacuated because of the wildfires. Authorities will allow residents back into their neighborhoods as soon as possible. However, a number of unsafe conditions still exist. At this time, fire remains a threat to all mountain communities. Power lines are down, utilities are out in many areas and may be for some time, and roads remain extremely hazardous. Guardrails have been destroyed, and roads are littered with debris. Tall trees continue to burn from the inside, and many could fall without warning. The following agencies are among those meeting regularly to develop an orderly, systematic re-entry program: U.S. Department of Forestry, San Bernardino County Fire Department, San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Department, San Bernardino County Department of Public Health, San Bernardino County Department of Public Works, San Bernardino County Assessor, San Bernardino County Building and Safety, Southern California Edison, and Southern California Gas. The County of San Bernardino will issue regular updates on the re- entry effort. The County of San Bernardino and all agencies involved in responding to and recovering from this disaster appreciate the public’s continued support and cooperation. The San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Department, the Riverside County Sheriff’s Department, and the California Highway Patrol continue to patrol the evacuated areas and will continue to do so until residents return.

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SAN BERNARDINO COUNTY EMERGENCY OPERATIONS CENTER Updated Fire Information

FIRE UPDATE: 10/31/03 0900 Hours Incident: Grand Prix Fire Expected Containment: 11/02/03 1800 Hours Acreage: 59,358 Cost to Date: $15,200,000 Containment: 85% Structure Loss: 52 residential structures destroyed, 40 homes damaged, 200 residences threatened, 48 outbuildings destroyed; 75 outbuildings threatened; 15 commercial properties threatened. Lifted Evacuation Orders: Baldy Mesa and Oak Hills. Mandatory Evacuation Orders: Silverwood and Summit Valley. Road Closures: Summit Valley Road at I-15. Roads Open: Lytle Creek Road Current Weather Conditions: SW winds 10-12 MPH. Temperature 45°. Relative humidity is 75%. Incident: Old Fire Expected Containment: 11/08/2003 1800 Hours Acreage: 95,395* Cost to Date: $5,553,795 Containment: 25% *Currently, the Grand Prix Fire is managing 45,515 acres of the Old Fire. Structure Loss: 850 homes and 10 commercial properties destroyed, and 35 homes damaged. Evacuation Orders: All mountain communities including Big Bear Valley, Lake Arrowhead, Crestline, Blue Jay, Twin Peaks, Cedar Pines, Skyforest, Seven Oaks, Angelus Oaks, Running Springs, Arrowbear, Cedar Glen, Rim Forest, Green Valley Lake, Forest Falls, and Mountain Home Village remain evacuated. Voluntary evacuations remain for Lucerne Valley in the Southern Foothills (National Forest area). Road Closures: Highway 173 remains closed at Lake Arrowhead Road. Current Weather Conditions: SW winds 10 MPH. Temperature 40°. Relative humidity is 50%. GENERAL INFORMATION Fatalities: 4 elderly stress- related Injuries: 3 Potential losses: $10 billion Evacuated People: Old Fire – more than 60,000 Evacuation Centers: · Apple Valley High School (11837 Navajo Road, Apple Valley)....................................... 89 · Jesse Turner Community Center (6396 Citrus Avenue, Fontana)................................... 47 · Hesperia High School (Maple & Main, Hesperia, 760-245- 6511)............................ FULL · Mojave Narrows Regional Park (18000 Yates Road, Victorville, 760-245-2226) · San Bernardino Int’l Airport (2065 E. Perimeter, San Bdno, 909-888-1485).............. 900 · Sultana High School (17311 Sultana Ave., Hesperia, 760-245- 6511)..................... FULL · Victor Valley Community College (18422 Bear Valley Road, Victorville, 760-245-4271) 97 Evacuees are also being accepted at Hesperia Lakes and Mojave Narrows Regional Park. Epicenter at the Rancho Cucamonga Stadium is accepting evacuees. NOTE: These 3 sites are not Red Cross Shelter Sites. Animal Evacuation Centers: · San Bernardino Shelter (333 Chandler, San Bernardino, 909- 384-1304 or 909-384-5275) · Devore Shelter (19777 Shelter Way, Devore, 909-887-8055) · San Bernardino International Airport (2065 E. Perimeter, San Bernardino, 909-888-1485) · San Bernardino County Fairgrounds (14800 Seventh St., Victorville, 800-472-5609) · Rancho Cucamonga Shelter (11780 Arrow Route, Rancho Cucamonga, 909-466-5609) · Mojave Narrows Regional Park (18000 Yates Road, Victorville, 760-245-2226) Accepting horses and cows · Glen Helen Holding Center (800-472-5609) · Yucaipa Regional Park (33700 Oak Glen Road, Yucaipa) · Horseman’s Center (24320 Hwy 18, Apple Valley, 760-240-7000 x-7555) · Victor Valley Protective League (Apple Valley Animal Shelter, 21779 Zuni Road, Apple Valley) · Barstow Humane Society (2480 E. Main St., Barstow) · Ingall’s Park (6th Street and Crestview, Norco) Personnel: Old Fire – 2,392 Grand Prix Fire – 1,851 School Closures: (909) 386-2413 PUBLIC NOTICE From the County of San Bernardino Thursday, October 30, 2003 Update on efforts to re-open mountain communities to evacuated residents State, federal, and county agencies are currently working on plans to safely re-open San Bernardino County mountain communities to residents who were evacuated because of the wildfires. Authorities will allow residents back into their neighborhoods as soon as possible. However, a number of unsafe conditions still exist. At this time, fire remains a threat to all mountain communities. Power lines are down, utilities are out in many areas and may be for some time, and roads remain extremely hazardous. Guardrails have been destroyed, and roads are littered with debris. Tall trees continue to burn from the inside, and many could fall without warning. The following agencies are among those meeting regularly to develop an orderly, systematic re-entry program: U.S. Department of Forestry, San Bernardino County Fire Department, San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Department, San Bernardino County Department of Public Health, San Bernardino County Department of Public Works, San Bernardino County Assessor, San Bernardino County Building and Safety, Southern California Edison, and Southern California Gas. The County of San Bernardino will issue regular updates on the re- entry effort. The County of San Bernardino and all agencies involved in responding to and recovering from this disaster appreciate the public’s continued support and cooperation. The San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Department, the Riverside County Sheriff’s Department, and the California Highway Patrol continue to patrol the evacuated areas and will continue to do so until residents return. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- SAN BERNARDINO COUNTY EMERGENCY OPERATIONS CENTER Updated Fire Information FIRE UPDATE: 10/31/03 0900 Hours Incident: Grand Prix Fire Expected Containment: 11/02/03 1800 Hours Acreage: 59,358 Cost to Date: $15,200,000 Containment: 85% Structure Loss: 52 residential structures destroyed, 40 homes damaged, 200 residences threatened, 48 outbuildings destroyed; 75 outbuildings threatened; 15 commercial properties threatened. Lifted Evacuation Orders: Baldy Mesa and Oak Hills. Mandatory Evacuation Orders: Silverwood and Summit Valley. Road Closures: Summit Valley Road at I-15. Roads Open: Lytle Creek Road Current Weather Conditions: SW winds 10-12 MPH. Temperature 45°. Relative humidity is 75%. Incident: Old Fire Expected Containment: 11/08/2003 1800 Hours Acreage: 95,395* Cost to Date: $5,553,795 Containment: 25% *Currently, the Grand Prix Fire is managing 45,515 acres of the Old Fire. Structure Loss: 850 homes and 10 commercial properties destroyed, and 35 homes damaged. Evacuation Orders: All mountain communities including Big Bear Valley, Lake Arrowhead, Crestline, Blue Jay, Twin Peaks, Cedar Pines, Skyforest, Seven Oaks, Angelus Oaks, Running Springs, Arrowbear, Cedar Glen, Rim Forest, Green Valley Lake, Forest Falls, and Mountain Home Village remain evacuated. Voluntary evacuations remain for Lucerne Valley in the Southern Foothills (National Forest area). Road Closures: Highway 173 remains closed at Lake Arrowhead Road. Current Weather Conditions: SW winds 10 MPH. Temperature 40°. Relative humidity is 50%. GENERAL INFORMATION Fatalities: 4 elderly stress- related Injuries: 3 Potential losses: $10 billion Evacuated People: Old Fire – more than 60,000 Evacuation Centers: · Apple Valley High School (11837 Navajo Road, Apple Valley)....................................... 89 · Jesse Turner Community Center (6396 Citrus Avenue, Fontana)................................... 47 · Hesperia High School (Maple & Main, Hesperia, 760-245- 6511)............................ FULL · Mojave Narrows Regional Park (18000 Yates Road, Victorville, 760-245-2226) · San Bernardino Int’l Airport (2065 E. Perimeter, San Bdno, 909-888-1485).............. 900 · Sultana High School (17311 Sultana Ave., Hesperia, 760-245- 6511)..................... FULL · Victor Valley Community College (18422 Bear Valley Road, Victorville, 760-245-4271) 97 Evacuees are also being accepted at Hesperia Lakes and Mojave Narrows Regional Park. Epicenter at the Rancho Cucamonga Stadium is accepting evacuees. NOTE: These 3 sites are not Red Cross Shelter Sites. Animal Evacuation Centers: · San Bernardino Shelter (333 Chandler, San Bernardino, 909- 384-1304 or 909-384-5275) · Devore Shelter (19777 Shelter Way, Devore, 909-887-8055) · San Bernardino International Airport (2065 E. Perimeter, San Bernardino, 909-888-1485) · San Bernardino County Fairgrounds (14800 Seventh St., Victorville, 800-472-5609) · Rancho Cucamonga Shelter (11780 Arrow Route, Rancho Cucamonga, 909-466-5609) · Mojave Narrows Regional Park (18000 Yates Road, Victorville, 760-245-2226) Accepting horses and cows · Glen Helen Holding Center (800-472-5609) · Yucaipa Regional Park (33700 Oak Glen Road, Yucaipa) · Horseman’s Center (24320 Hwy 18, Apple Valley, 760-240-7000 x-7555) · Victor Valley Protective League (Apple Valley Animal Shelter, 21779 Zuni Road, Apple Valley) · Barstow Humane Society (2480 E. Main St., Barstow) · Ingall’s Park (6th Street and Crestview, Norco) Personnel: Old Fire – 2,392 Grand Prix Fire – 1,851 School Closures: (909) 386-2413 Federal Assistance: FEMA help line: 909-621-FEMA Salvation Army (clothing donations) 909-888-1336 Disaster Assistance (city assistance) Fire Information: San Bernardino County Fire, 909-355-8800 Joint Information Center, 909-382-7661 Website info: www.sbcounty.gov www.calmast.org www.arb.ca.gov/smp/progdev/pubeduc/wfgv8.pdf

Don't even try returning back yet

For the benefit of S Bdo mountain residents who are finding this site via Google:

Do not even attempt to go back up the hill!
It is dangerous; power lines are down.
If some patrolman needs to chase you down, you're taking him/her away from a more worthwhile task.
Just stay put. Don't fuck it up.

Door to door trick or treating

I remember hallowe'en two years ago, just after 9/11, and how I melted when I saw a toddler dressed up as a fireman.

Last year I spent hallowe'en in Las vegas and observed my niece's first bout of trick or treating (she was not dressed as a fireman). Later on, firetrucks came down the street, flashed their lights and handed out candy to the throng that gathered at the truck. I don't think they'll have as many trucks out this year to do that.

This year when it comes to trick-or-treating, all I can think of are firemen: They're up there right now, taking advantage of the weather, going door to door to renew foam on houses, pull furniture away from structures. They're not wearing costumes; this is not for kicks; it's their regular gig.

on "rimoftheworld.net"'s upgrade and wider reputation

RimoftheWorld.net did a server/site upgrade to handle all the additional traffic last night. Someone there posted that Channel 5 news mentioned the site. (how long before he needs to do another upgrade?) The noise to signal ratio is changing. More and more it's getting deluged with "Does anyone know what's going on with the area in [insert name here]?" With so many queries, it's hard to hunt for the posts that contain real information.

(I'm getting a small number of email queries "do you know anything about...?"--I'm just a person in the san gabriel valley who really needs to get outta here and do some work and all I know I find by the boards and the scanner radio and Joe Urbz's weblog. follow the links posted here.)

pe.com: At last, rain to the rescue

(free reg required) Weather slows fire down. No structures lost yesterday. Some firemen who packed to fight fire when it was hot didn't pack their warm things. Fog makes it difficult to keep lookouts to watch fire and get firerighters out in time when things flare up.

Rain and possibly a dusting of snow are forecast for tonight and Saturday, and that should finally inject enough moisture into tinder-dry brush to give fire crews the edge they've needed. High temperatures are expected to drop into the 40s today.

... But the Old Fire won't be extinguished anytime soon. "That fire will probably be going until we get significant rain or snow on it," Shameson said.

Thursday's fog and rain helped retard the flames by putting more moisture in the air and, most important, in the tinder-dry trees and grasses the fire has been consuming. In the extremely dry forest of the San Bernardino Mountains, the effect will be slow to materialize. It takes days for even small limbs to soak up the moisture, said Benson with the Southern California fire operations center.

... Big Bear is a ghost town, but The Log Cabin restaurant is open and feeding reporters and firefighters. Owner Steve LeCroix said he had evacuated Tuesday, but was allowed to come back up only under the condition he open his restaurant. [LeCroix is an in-law to one of the old MetaCreations Bryce engineers; I've been wondering how they're faring.]

Rant on why you shouldn't sneak behind fire lines

Also from the message boards: A rant posted by someone who's working the fire about those who sneak into the area. Worth reading!

From: Jesse (spectr17)

Just got home, long day. One rant I need to voice for those of us working the fire and those on the fire line who can't speak right now. There have been people post here and email me about sneaking across the fire lines into the burned area. I listenedearlier tonight to CDF report of 4wds in the off limits areas at Rimforest. Looters? Idiots? They don't know yet but they are diverting people to find out. People, pull your head out of your asses. There isn't nothing on that mountain worth your life. The evac order was long ago and you are not only endangering yourself but also the firefighter or cop who may have to stop what their doing to save your sorry butt if you get trapped by the fire. Stay off the mountain and stop thinking about only yourself, your family or retrieving a TV or damn couch. We don't come to your work and stand in the way so please do us all a favor and stay the heck out of the fire area. If you want to looky loo, the TV has the best views. Even if you're not in the fire area and you just clog up the nearby roads, you tie up the logistics and support people who are bringing up the food, fuel and parts needed to keep the FFs going. We are trained to operate in the fire area and have an escort or radio with us at all times so we know when to move. You don't and that is what gets the knuckleheads in trouble. I can guarantee you one thing, if you cause a FF or cop to lose his life or get injured because of your stupidity, you will be a pariah in society. I personally will make it my new quest to publicize the names of whoever causes any harm to those working up there. Sorry if this seems harsh or rash but this is something that shouldn't be happening and it's causing a lot of problems not only here in the Old Fire, but all over. Just stay home please and stay out of the way.

description of situation near Running Springs

This is on the RimoftheWorld.net messageboards; RS (Running Springs) section. MikeS works on something to do with fire analysis (wind, terrain, etc.) and working on the fire perimeter map. Here's his report (over several posts) of about an hour ago:

From: MikeS

Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 10:48 PM

UPDATE: Fire flanked RS to the W in the canyon area W of Live Oak and S of Nob Hill. Near miss on the W extreme of Enchanted near the canyon. Possible loss of 1-2 out structures. Fire line continues NNW to intersect HWY 18 .2 miles SW Nob Hill. Crews held the lines. All houses on Poplar, upper Live Oak, and possibly lower Nob Hill foamed. No structures reported as lost

Line continues NN from the HWY 18 intersect to the vicinity of the T6 Deep Creek crossing (where Hook Creek RD crosses Deep Creek). From there the line trends NNW swinging slightly N of Lake Arrowhead.

Fire flanked RS E missing Smiley running up Friedalba canyon towards the CEDU school. Fire remained W of Keller peak but has run up to CEDU and is in the vicinity of RimWood. Line is approx. .25 miles S of RimWood and runs SW for about .5 miles. There are no reports of structure loss in the area. Fire is active but on the ground and significantly hampered due to weather conditions and fuel model in the area. More to follow ...

(in response to a specific question) You are asking me to speculate. Model suggests no significant advances. It really doesn''t look like the fire will run again tonight. Lines should stay relative to present location all night. Heavy, cold, thick air forces fire to lay down on the ground. Outlook good.

UPDATE: CEDU School. I have not heard any reports of structures in immediate danger or other crews being re-routed to this area. This is favorable.

RS RESIDENTS: If even one aspect of the fire model changes overnight, things could become radically different. However, I do not expect this to happen.

scanner report: Do recon of Green Valley Lake

Radio scanner: just had a request for someone to "do recon" to see how close fire is to Green Valley Lake. (I think I'll be staying up to hear this. It feels good to hear them mention protecting the structures in that community.)

update: Yeeow! Saw this other version of heat map. Fire off to the west of GVL. Better to have all that with moist air, tho (she said, with hope in her voice and the cabin keys prayerfully with her in her jeans pocket)